Might give you a slight nudge in the direction, but by no means a full proof. But were not debating whether the Bible teaches the immaculate conception. And my focus was on the word, adelphi, which Trent really didnt focus on, on his opening statement. Christie claims the Hebrew canon was closed by Ezra and other learned men at an event called the Great Synagogue. Well done. Or are they all good? And then she was placed to be serving within the temple. And this is what I did in the opening statement. While scripturally affirming Jesus is the son of God, they contradict scripture by claiming that Jesus is Michael the archangel, because scripture affirms Michael is a created being while Jesus is the eternal deity. . So in the Septuagint, Genesis 19:9, Lots daughters use the same Greek word, I know not man. So were they engaged in a vow of perpetual virginity? Because thats what the Catholic Answers encyclopedia states. Did they believe that the doctrine of Marys perpetual virginity violated the authority of scripture? Richard Bauckham, for example, says, The word adelphi, hes an eminent New Testament scholar, need not mean full sister. Probably I believe it at the bodily assumption only because theres nothing in scripture that even eludes to her death, it doesnt allude to what happened at the end of her life, which even epiphany as Islamist stated that nobody knows what happened to Mary at the end of her life, which demonstrates there was no eyewitness. The Protestant biblical scholar, Victor Hamilton, says, To say that Jesus is Marys prototokos is simply to say Mary had no child before she gave birth to Jesus. This is a term that refers to the child who opens the womb, and it makes sense that Luke would use prototokos because the term, firstborn, is later used in Luke 2:22 through 23 to talk about the purification rite and rite of presenting those who are the firstborn. If you guys could try to keep your answers to about two minutes each. Because if you look in Strongs Greek Exhaustive Concordance and how it is used in the New Testament, which is what the debate is about not extra biblical work, it is used consistently and only to describe biological siblings. Hallow.com/mattfred. Probably not like any other piece of wood. [inaudible 01:22:12] Thats fine. In Maccabees would be an example or the Jewish work Joseph and Aseneth. And more importantly, thats not what we are debating. Origen and Melito present lists that modern scholars recognize are of Jewish origin and so they lack the deuterocanonicals, but even these lists are missing books such as Esther and Lamentations. Luther and Zwingli though, probably they did believe that Mary was ever Virgin. In week 9 vs. the New York Jets, Christie went 3 for 4 on field-goal attempts (20, 29, & 34 yards). Im sure Trent doesnt think that that man is immaculate conceived, because there are those at Catholic Answers and elsewhere who thinks [Greek 00:48:09] or [Greek 00:48:11] eight means that they were always in a state of grace, meaning that Mary was sinless. If it was, the New Testament writers would not deviate from it occasionally and use their own Greek translation. And by the way, hi, Jeff. He was put on a cross. Why was she shocked about the enunciation? So a child that age, you think its realistic that in the condition that they were brought up, that Mary could have never committed a sin especially as a child? Make an Appointment So maybe you could focus on the other three, which obviously you disagree with all these three Marion dogmas, but which do you think would be the easiest for you to get on board with? I dont know if I would. What he lived by, he died by. Over the past couple of years, I have followed the rise and fall of the Non-Sequitur show. A Real Ale Loving Scottish Crime Writer. I wouldnt assume that that involves a vow virginity, but I think theres a different context in relation to the fact that we have betrothal between Mary and Joseph, that its an odd construction. Contrary to what Steve said this has been infallibly defined, though before the ex cathedra statements of the First Vatican Counsel. So then the word adelphos could also apply in this case to describe people that they have the same adoptive father, Joseph, but different mothers, Josephs first wife and his second wife. Philosophy program at Talbot. Yeah, no, Im grateful for Steve to take part in this. So I agree with that. In fact, the authors of these texts, such as Sirach, described writing down Gods wisdom to indicate they were writing Scripture, which wouldnt make sense if they thought the canon was closed. Finally, the point about Mary dying, I think Steve was really missing this here. But were not debating whether the Marian Dogmas have a historical foundation in the writings of the church fathers. And Im curious, you used a comment about Jesus being the son of Mary. Yeah. Okay. Before the 2001 regular season, Christie was placed on IR from an offseason groin injury having accuracy problems during the preseason being replaced by Jake Arians prior to the start of the season. My wife and I literally were listening to Scott Hahn reading the Book of Romans as we were going as sleep last night. Although I first heard of Greg Koukl as an undergrad at Biola University in the mid 90s, we became good friends in the early 2000s as students in the M.A. Theyll say that I dont believe it, but Steve might say it doesnt contradict scripture necessarily. Some of these questions are for both of you but it might be better if I ask a question, just one of you respond since we have so many. Yeah. Okay. We must be careful, of course, that in Marion devotion, sometimes people use very flowery language that they shouldnt necessarily be taken literally because they love Mary as the mother of God who leads us to her son. He offered them in the debate. He had mentioned about, in the book of Jude, about Moses and the devil contending for the body, or Michael contending with a body of Moses with Michael the archangel. See Genesis 35:23, Deuteronomy 21:15, Joshua 6:26, 1 Chronicles 3:1, and Hebrews 11:28, where firstborn is also used this way. So much the same way Jesus was free from original sin and personal sin, yet when he was on the cross, its not like the nails couldnt go through his hands because hes free from sin, so hes immortal. So it must be used in some other way. Why is there disagreement between relatives, older stepbrothers, cousins, et cetera? Finally, lets look at the dogma of the Perpetual Virginity of Mary. I think youve already said to some degree youre okay referring to Mary as the mother of God. Itll change your life, no doubt. I already addressed Psalm 65, but Steve said, Well, the sins were applied to Jesus in a non-literal way. Right, but notice what it says in Psalm 69:5 of the Messiah, Oh God, thou knowest my folly. Can a conclusion be infallible if the underlying logic is false? Dont have the context of this question. Or, since Jesus said the Pharisees in his presence murdered this person, it could refer to one of Jesus contemporaries. So Trent, what are some arguments that you hear Catholics put forth for any of the dogmas we are discussing today, that you wish they would stop putting forth because theyre bad arguments? And the same is true for Mary. But Mary only had a human nature and a sinful nature. I dont think people at the time would call them Catholic. Its a way to begin exploration of it. However, in Acts 26:5 Paul tells King Agrippa that he lived (past tense) as a Pharisee. And then hopefully, in my next turn, Ill be able to address some of the other arguments that Steve has raised. In week 1 vs. the Tennessee Titans, Christie went 3 for 4 on field-goal attempts (41, 42, & 33 yards). So when it comes to Mary, idolatry would occur if we were to give Mary worship that is due to God alone. Calvin did not believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary. So again, argument by exception. Second Samuel 6:23 says, Michal the daughter of Saul had no child to or eos the day of her death. Which of course she did not have children after she died. Also the Greek word for brother, its not always you to represent full brothers. For example, if the Bible taught that Mary gave birth to other children, that she committed a sin, or that she was not assumed into heaven, the dogmas would be falsified. Its not necessarily saying every single father affirms something, since, as Steve said, you wont necessarily get them all affirming, [inaudible 01:36:48] they dont write on everything. He was a five-year teammate of quarterback Jim Kelly, who has been in remission from sinus cancer since August. Isaiah 49:26 describes God as savior and Redeemer echoed in Galatians 4:4-5. Finally, Christies Pharisee argument for the Protestant Old Testament canon fails because its logic can be used to make a similar argument for a completely different Old Testament canon. In 2 Kings 2:11, Elijah went up by a whirlwind to heaven, meaning he did not see death either before being assumed to heaven. Influenced early on by early monasticism, asceticism, and even gnostic-like texts, early Roman Catholics were troubled by how a created sinful fallen creature went on to have other children and could give birth to the sinless Son of God in the flesh. Then after being assumed into heaven, she would have a glorified body. In fact, Jesus called the Pharisees a brood of vipers, and John Bergsma has provided evidence in his book Jesus and the Dead Sea Scrolls that John belonged to an Essene sect at Qumran, whose members embraced a wider canon than the one Christie is defending. Heres one, Trent, I dont like and I wonder what you think about it. For example, in Psalm 69:5, it says of the Messiah, Oh God thou knowist my folly. No, it doesnt say that but it doesnt say Joseph was bodily assumed into heaven and the same three dogmas could apply to Joseph as well, but we dont make as much why is there not a dogma those dogmas apply to Joseph. James White: Steve Ray is a Dolt, Dunce, Imbecile, Idiot, and Ignoramus *** [] What is clear is that Ray has not seriously interacted with anything other than this kind of "Jack Chick/Dave Hunt . So my point would be that if we would show that devotion to the means through which Jesus died, why wouldnt we show that similar devotion through the means by which Jesus was born? Lets debate the Apocrypha! It would always demand that. assumes Paul retained a pharisaical identity. As far as Jesus brothers and sisters, I probably have studied that more than anything else and that would probably be the hardest for me to accept or maybe Mary being sinless because I mean, Trent, you got a seven year old, its like is as good as a kid as he is based on who his parents are. Thats the purpose of their assumptions. He was content to let go and die a natural death. Matthew was simply not concerned with telling us what did happen after Jesus was born. Yet, if Mary did not inherit the stain of original sin passed down from Adam, she would not have died and therefore no need to rescue her from death before her earthly life ended. Download it once and read it on your Kindle device, PC, phones or tablets. Well, I would say that it contradicts it because if she was indeed sinless, Mary would not have been bodily assumed into heaven for the reasons I stated in my opening statement. Id probably enjoy Polycarp. When it comes to savior, the word is used in a lot of different ways in the whole of scripture, not just in the New Testament. Its free to watch the podcast. So was Jesus free from sin and he also died? And Steve, stick around because Ive got one final question for both of you, but I wanted to say two things before I do that. Okay. This is not the rule. So lets apply these standards to the remaining dogmas. Did some Jews during this time recognize the inspiration of these texts? Isiah wrote the deliverer will come out of Zion. So Steve, we agree And I didnt mean to bring up the dogma Theotokos mother of God in any kind of underhanded way or way to go against our previous agreement because when people hear Marian dogmas, they think of the four of them. And it is from the pure fiction of the proto evangelium of James, Odes of Solomon, the Ascension of Isaiah, the Transitus of Pseudo-Melito, and other false gospels and apocryphal literature, some attached with anathemas by early popes for entertaining these works. Just as eating from the tree of life wouldve resulted in Adam physically living forever likewise, Adam, eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, result put into him physically dying. 1644440684524367. steve.christie@phmloans.com. 0 (0 ratings) Leave a review. First Corinthians 15, in my opening statement, it says that there are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies and people who have earthly bodies are sown perishable, meaning corruptible in dishonor, meaning contempt, reproach. There might be historical errors, for example, in some magisterial documents, talking about the history of a doctrine, whether a certain saint or father believed X, Y, or Z. Infallibility has a narrow sense and only covers what is specifically defined. The last one to be accepted was the bodily assumption of Mary. It only states that Jesus was an exception to this because he had a divine nature, not a sinful nature, as well as a human nature. And weve also addressed that frequently at catholic.com. That was a really well articulated opening statement and I appreciate it. As an authorised Mesabi dealer and supplier of tube and shell . He is resolutely atheist, but not of the 'religion poisons everything' variety; he thinks institutional religion - while based on an entirely false premise - can evolve and be a force for good. This is an example called eisegesis of Scripture. Steve Hays (1959-2020) We just learned that Steve Hays has passed away in a hospice. Many of them did not believe in him. Trent, do you want to start or do you want me to answer that first? Yeah. Because as Steve agreed with me in this debate, the Greek word adelphos can mean adoptive sibling or half sibling. First, ancient Jews kept their books in a series of scrolls and not in a single book, so its anachronistic to say this refers to the table contents in a book. If she was immaculately conceived, she would not have bodily assumed needed to be rescued from death because thats the purpose of assumption, which we see from Enoch and Elijah. Being sinful is saying that you have inherited original sin and becoming sin means that sin was imputed to you. Type it in. Although the Pharisees had authority regarding ritual practices, they did not have doctrinal authority over other Jews, including those who came to believe Jesus was the messiah. The purpose of this debate, as Trent had brought up, is about the Marian Dogmas. And so if it doesnt contradict scripture, then it should be an issue between Catholics and Protestants of secondary importance, much like how people disagree about infant baptism. So this next question is for you, Steve. Second, the Zechariah killed in 2 Chronicles was the son of Jehoiada, not Berechiah. Lets see how much we can get through. Can you name one verse where either God or Jesus is described that way in the New Testament? If it was an eyewitness account, I suppose someone would had to have been informed about that. EDWARD D. ANDREWS (AS in Criminal Justice, BS in Religion, MA in Biblical Studies, and MDiv in Theology) is CEO and President of Christian Publishing House. The YouTube show, which was created by Kyle Curtis and Steve McRae, often featured interesting guests, such as Hugh Ross, Inspiring Philosophy, Shannon Q, Sy Garte, Matt Dillahunty, Paulogia, Lawrence Krauss, and more. But hell say we can believe in that exception because of whats come from divine revelation in sacred Scripture. And see, heres the thing. But the immaculate conception was declared 15 years or so before that. People are familiar with this one about why Protestant Bibles are smaller. In fact, in the early church, it would be idolatry. So does the Bible say Mary gave birth to anyone besides Jesus? It doesnt even imply that. I just want to make sure. We ought to do it. Those that have been infallibly defined to be part of divine revelation. Steve Ray is a Apologetics, Convert, Evangelist travelling from , Michigan. Should we baptize babies or not? Okay. Im throwing you a bone here. By: Rochester Business Journal Staff By Scott Pitoniak May 19, 2017. When it comes to savior, I would just challenge Steve, where does Luke 1:46 through 48 talk about sin? And another is a partial contradiction, such as the dogma of Jehovahs Witnesses on the identity of Jesus. And if he had met sister-in-law, such as Marys sister in John chapter 19, he wouldve utilize the Greek word, [Greek 00:47:36] thats used in the book of Ruth to describe Orpahs relationship with Ruth. Christie's career in Buffalo spanned 144 regular season games and a 78.3 success rate on field goals. The relevance would be that you are using it. Hes saying that every ethnic group is guilty of sin, whether youre a Jew or a non Jew. Theres no contradiction there at all. Okay. Enoch and Elijah would be an example. I dont know if I could answer the question definitively. I have to say, maybe, and Trent brought this up in the debate, when it talks about the brothers and sisters of Jesus and using adelphoi to mean that it always means biological brother. Matthew 18:17 says, Jesus says, If a person who sins against you refuses to listen to you or two or three witnesses, tell it to the church. And it seems to envision the church as having some kind of authoritative structure and not simply as the invisible bond between all believers. I didnt bring up [Greek 00:52:36]. Mark chapter three, even though it doesnt explicitly state that these are Jesuss siblings, the Greek word literally means to be, like of that individual. And again, thats the view of John Chrysostom. . Yep. No, because their issue with Rome was about the sole authority of scripture over the sole authority of the church. And weve seen that time and time again, and so Im going to address the other examples that hes just raised. Discover Geoffrey Stephen "Steve" Christie 's Biography, Age, Height, Physical Stats, Dating/Affairs, Family and career updates. The same in any intellectual study. So, if the greatest of those born before Christ wasnt constricted to accepting the canon Christie is defending, then we shouldnt be compelled to do the same, either. Regarding her bodily assumption that Pope declared infallibly, if anyone should dare willfully to deny that which we have defined, let him know that he has fallen away completely from the divine and Catholic faith. Mark - Hello Christie, thank you so much for . But before we do that, I want to say thank you to our sponsor, Hallow. I would ask him this question, you can answer it now or some other venue, who was the first Christian, like author, father, theologian, who held to the same theology that Steve does? It is never used for a female non-sibling relative in either Testament, nor in its Greek. The fact that Mary died doesnt prove that she committed a sin any more than the fact that Jesus died does not prove that he inherited sin or committed a sin. Christie scored 163 points for the Bucs in 1990-91 and became an NFL free agent after two seasons, signing a free agent contract in 1992 with the Buffalo Bills. This is fantastic. As far as adelphos, I dont have a problem with the word adelphos, but my question is, why would you abandon its primary meaning for another meaning when it doesnt demand it? The Protestant Old Testament canon is also not what we find in the oldest manuscripts of the Bible, such as codex Sinaticus and codex Vaticanus, which date from the fourth century after Christ. By contrast, some quoted Sirach as a book of Scripture, though it was eventually excluded. But they disagree about that because at least infant baptism, for many Protestants, at least it doesnt contradict Scripture, even if Scripture is silent on the matter. Im not saying thats a required view, but its a quite plausible one. Athanasius likewise calls Wisdom and Judith Scripture and appeals to Wisdom 7:25-27 as evidence for the deity of Christ. Hebrews 11:5 states, "By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death.' And he was not found because God took him up. Steve may not believe thats what the text says, but if it does say that, theres no contradiction in it saying that. Something went wrong with your request. Of course, this objection becomes a problem for Protestants since by this standard, many of their doctrine like sola scriptura, eternal security, sola fide would also arrive too late in church history to count as being apostolic. Im not sure. Instead, we should listen to Christ, his apostles, and the Church they founded for the answer to what constitutes Sacred Scripture. It can also refer to a half sibling as well, such as in the Old Testament, the word for brother is used to refer to Ruben as being the brother of his half brothers. Many Protestant scholars say Wis-dom 2 either contains a messianic prophecy or Matthew used this passage as a template when he described Jesus crucifixion. Of course, that is not what we are debating today. The Bible doesnt say that apostles are baptized, but it certainly seems quite fitting that they would be given everything else. Juan R. Vlez Thats why Protestant scholars since the nineteenth century have taken the position Herbet Ryle did in saying the legend about the Great Synagogue was wholly untrustworthy., Christie also cites Geoghan and Homess book The Bible for Dummies in favor of the Great Synagogue, but on page 11 the authors make no mention of the Great Synagogue or of Ezras canon being identical to todays Protestant Old Testament. Submit to my authority. Jesus is never referred to as a preemptive savior, but as a redeeming, delivering savior, which includes redeeming and delivering Mary from her sins. Its a word that really should be used strictly for God. Im also going to send Matt a link to my other channel, verasage.us/stevechristie. Who was the first person you could say, Yeah, thats my theology. The experience of over thirty years of singing professionally has taught him how to tune into the lover that lives in us all. I think there is good reason to believe that, but thats not what were debating today. So we have to read the context. Since I dont believe in the unbiblical doctrine of sola scriptura, I dont have to prove these dogmas from scripture alone. Hes simply talking about Jesus being the firstborn. Which church father would you want to preach at your church? He rejected that dogma, though he did not believe Matthew 1:25 proved it. Steve Christie also has his own website. Sure. Defenders Media provides media solutions to an alliance of evangelistic ministries that defend the Christian worldview. So when were speaking of the adelphos, the brethren of the Lord, its used in some sort of non-standard way. And again, just to give an example in the Septuagint, in the Book of Sirach, which is inspired for Trent, but its not inspired for me, it uses the Greek word [Greek 00:47:52], which is a masculine form of [Greek 00:47:55] when it says, Hail Mary, full of grace. And its used to describe a man who is full of grace. No one ever says the gift of prophecy or divine revelation had returned after being absent for several centuries. This also contradicts the biblical purpose of an assumption. So we could assume that they have the same biological mother and father. Well, it is an argument that actually I hear from a lot of contemporary Catholic apologists. Jesus does not rebuke her. They shall mourn for him as one mourns for an only child and weep bitterly over him as one weeps over a firstborn. So the terms can both be used in interchangeably in that respect. In fact, Protestants believe in many doctrines that are not found in scripture like their 66 book cannon of scripture where that public revelation ended in the first century. Well, the answer to the question needs to be in relation to applying it elsewhere in scripture because theres a lot of people that are mentioned in scripture that doesnt say that they had any children. In Not Really Of Us, author and former skeptic, Steve Christie, examines specific reasons why your child abandoned the Christian faith. Dear catholic.com visitors: This Catholic Answers website, with all its free resources, is the worlds largest source of explanations for Catholic beliefs and practices. Certainly they were baptized Catholics, but they opposed whatever they thought the church taught that contradicted sacred Scripture in a wide variety of doctrines, except they didnt contradict on Mary being the mother of God or her being ever Virgin. Those would be irrelevant to the question. Thats all I wanted to say. All right. So if you got a hallow.com/mattfred right now, click that link in the description below, youll get a three month trial. No, it doesnt. It has all the free resources including the Study Guide to his first book, all his Bible studies, and his contact info: http://vernisage.us/stevechristie/ Steve Christie has also appeared on the Third Man Podcast: Steve Christie has written several books: But the problem with this argument is that it says in Luke 2:22-24, that its offered for their purification. Stephen Christie has been at the top of the Real Estate Industry for 30 years. And so it would fulfill the promise in Philippians 3:21 that says, Our bodies, lowly bodies, will be transformed like his heavenly body, Christ. So you cant use Matthew 1:25 to prove Mary and Joseph had sexual relations. These would be children from his previous marriage, making them adoptive brothers and sisters, and as such, they would be fully Jesuss brother and sister, the full use of the word adelphos. I do remember in that debate with James White five years ago, saying, Our theology should come from the Bible, not the Bible from our theology. And I was not arguing for Sola Scriptura. We wouldnt expect it. I dont think he could do that. Search. While Jesus was conceived by the holy spirit, the Psalmists wrote, In sin, my mother conceived me. Echoed later by the apostle Paul all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. The Greek word translated all [foreign language 00:08:51] translated everyone, which includes Mary in her conception, but obviously not Jesus since scripture explicitly states, Jesus was without sin. Dogmas from scripture alone try to keep your answers to about two minutes.... Rome was about the Marian Dogmas from sinus cancer since August, which Trent didnt. 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